Love thinking about this stuff, and pondering out loud with brothers-thanks guys!

It’s worthy meditation, whether cities themselves were a redemptive idea, or part of the original plan. Many of the prophets, saw a city at the end (both nations relating through a city, and a future type of city descending etc)—Augustine sort of simplified it into the City of God, but folks like Zachariah, Isaiah and others got more specific. There were angels measuring it etc in Ezekiel’s visions. At first it has a temple, then when Father and Son come back fully onto earth to dwell with humans, they are the temple, and the Day shines constantly in that city.

Then, i think you have to look at all the nations streaming to Jerusalem itself at the end, which in all those words of prophecy is still a place etc. Then comes, the new city with the twelve gates (Rev 21)—that’s the new heaven and earth type city. So maybe it’s good to look at it as what happens beforehand, and what happens later. And what part is already in God’s imagination!

If we are in collaboration with Him and we invent an airplane, that was probably already somewhere in His dream life! Yet, i think He likes watching us come up with it on our own so to speak. Maybe it’s like that with cities. But also it seems from early on, that to go out and make collective culture was not intrinsically bad, but part of our creative collaboration with God! Peter Bos the dutch theologian wrote on that well i think.

Regardless, His Dream, seems to involve cities, nations, kings etc…He still seems to want to think collectively like that. And the garden metaphor is there all along! The first task is to tend the garden, to kratos it, that is to complete or cause it to be fruitful! That was Adam’s commission before he fell.

Since, God is One, His garden and city metaphors would be integrated in a way that maybe ours isn’t yet!

But this new city in the new heaven and earth (sort of St John’s sight of what came after Daniel’s vision)…so it seems like it is still part of His imagination to have it imaged as a city—to be a King over a kingdom with cities and nations, but perhaps on another scale. So perhaps that wasn’t just part of human fallenness, but in His original imagination. Just a thought from my perspective an studies on the relationship between city and nature, thus far!

Lastly, he often, as at the beginning of Isaiah, talks to the earth itself as a character. “Listen, heavens and pay attention, earth, for the Lord has spoken…” etc. So there is something of a relationship directly between God and the earth—as we see in Noah’s times, when He makes a covenant with the earth itself—so that would factor in, i think to the garden part of Him. And then you see all the mighty judgments coming down in the seas and waters in most of the end times prophecies, so again it comes through the earth itself and humans have to adjust to that judgement etc.

We make collective representations of ourselves as well, but the prophets seemed to see both a streaming of the nations to a particular city, and a future city of glory where His Throne and Presence were the light. I like thinking about this stuff, thanks guys for considering it!

One of the question goes back to early on—is the fact that Cain became the builder of the first cities, mean that they are intrinsically not of God. I often talk to my “get back to nature” friends about this—to dialogue with that Rousseau philosophy or Thoreau (Walden Pond) or Emerson here in America-both had that dualism between nature and urban, and idealized nature. Same ideas of getting back to nature as the place of peace, rather than working in the cities and helping them shine towards an integrated garden.

SO one of the questions implied here is whether cities were in God’s original imagination before rebellion. It’s a worthy question. I think so, i think He wanted to image Himself through human collectivity, but maybe in a way we have not yet realized. Just some thoughts, since Sam asked me to expand a bit.

Of course, i think and fall in love with cities a lot! And feel that’s part of discipling the nations into all three Names. But it’s cool to think about how nature integrates with city from His Perspective! I’ll keep learnings and considering it, nice that you two wise men are also considering it also! To there’s my brief response, just to expand the discussion!