My friend was talking to me last night about the difference between the church and Christ. “I like Jesus, but yikes, His church is a mess!”

Love that, as a start to a meaningful conversation. Yes, let’s separate out Jesus, from the cultures formed in His Name. Let’s get the right stumbling block! Let’s trip on and over the right thing!

He grew up in a strict legalistic version of christianity. “We couldn’t even enjoy a milkshake properly! And my sister couldn’t wear cool designed clothes, and she’s a fashion designer!”

“Jesus couldn’t be like the church i grew up in! Jesus wouldn’t attend many of His churches,” was how he put it. “I always feel Him outside the church culture, waiting for the program to be over. I really like Him, but I can’t believe that He would like much of the christian culture.”

We spoke of how He liked Jesus but had a real problem with most of His followers. “Inconsistency of Love is my major problem, outside of the overt racism in Jesus Name historically.” Yet, separating Christ and Christianity isn’t easy, as I’ve learned.

I love Flannery O’Connors take on it where she has a preacher character preaching the church of God without Christ. She was really talking about the church of Jesus, versus christian culture.

Finding the right stumbling block still matters. Most people were hurt more by religious culture than Jesus, as I’ve experienced. I like to go with a person’s experience of Jesus versus christian culture. He tends to break in, past the culture which developed in His Name.

As Ghandi put it, I have no problems with Jesus, it’s His followers that keep me from becoming a Christian.

I’ve thought lots about how the symbol of Christ has been broken, and about how the culture of Christianity after Constantine, started “going south” so to speak. We are responsible to heal that image, and represent it well. Or maybe just to embody and have depth union with Christ if we follow and are named by His Name.

Yet, throughout the ages, there have been symbols of the true chapel in the church as they say. The true church where He is, versus the cultural church. If the church is His actual Body (Presence/tabernacle), you’ll need to find Him to discern where His real garment is, even within the building. I’ve certainly had to.

Anyways, great and now more common conversation i’ve been having with friends about not throwing out The Baby with the bath water! I love the topic myself, and will probably keep thinking about it forever. Unlike lots of folks these days, i like talking about the difference between religious culture and true spirituality. I still find it leads to fruitful conversations! As this one was!

Peeling off culture without harming the fruit isn’t easy, just as peeling an orange without damaging the fruit. And culture itself isn’t intrinsically bad to be sure. Christ redeems cultural expression to be sure! Assuming He Himself is actually at the Center! All fruits need peels to hold them together Yet, culture is the expression, the core identity is real matter.

Again, a great talk with a dear friend who cares enough to seek. I love talking spirituality these days, since the conversation is being forced to the surface anyways. Religion versus spirituality is one way in. But I liked my friend’s—Jesus versus the religion which formed around Him. In many ways He was talking about religious spirit itself versus transformational encounter with Christ. I love that conversation. I love helping people peel things off to get to the essence!

Having studied religions for many years, this is not a unique problem to christianity-where the followers do not always embody the Founder’s spirituality. “Religious spirit, or some form of legalism (which ironically is what Jesus was fighting!) is present in all religions, as is true seeking to live out the way of their founder.”

Yet, Jesus is unique. There is a call to union with His Very Life, and there are historically varying degrees of spiritual success in that. I love talking to people about Jesus versus the religion which was founded from Him. It’s always a risky and worthy conversation, which most often leads to good fruit.

St Paul does an interesting job of wrestling with religious spirit as well as racism. Both of which he was most probably killed by on all sides. But we will talk Paul in our next conversation I’m sure. He’s a wrestling match in all directions.