What got you interested in the relationship between art and faith?

Well everything. My dad is a minister, my mom, an artist; so, in some sense, i feel i have always been trying to find a spiritual context for both the church and the art world.

I realized early on that the Kingdom of God, which Jesus spoke of was bigger than both the church and the art world, and somehow contextualized both.

In what sense?

Well, for the art world, it provides a sense of purpose for why create, and addresses that need for the work to have a larger significance, than just making stuff. The art world has it’s own upper stories or ultimate ground of being—usually in the west it is some form of success. But what Jesus was teaching was higher than success.  It was more transformational, on an individual and outwardly and society level. If we take on His Nature, we change all that is around us by His character and Life flowing outwards through our lives and art. We express our core identities in Him, through art-and it communicates through symbols His Life out to others. He was teaching us about what we actually are–I know you, therefore I called you to create. In this way, true art making is inescapable from finding identity.

And the way to do that?

Well, St Peter would be a clarion example. You have a spiritual revelation in such a way that you see the true nature of things, this happens first through seeing the True Identity of Jesus Himself. This is always the starting point to self understanding–seeing who Jesus is; then He is permitted to start whispering our names to us. When we focus on Him, we are given ourselves, because He knows us better than we do. He contextualizes us to ourselves.

Then I think, He starts revealing our eternal names to us over time, and through experiences. The white stone room above where all our names are written, starts to get activated as we look at who He really is. He is the Source of Identity. I think lots of people miss that in the church. He knows us. As David and the prophet Jeremiah saw!

Jesus, You,  knit me, therefore you are able to call, cause me to stand and reveal my particular path in you–that one prepared before hand, which is hidden and secure in His Own Heart. That is our ultimate context for every dimension of who we are, including our creative selves or imaginations. The whole self is meant to be baptized into that place in Him, and it does indeed become the “secret place of the Most High”. He takes us to His Own Garden. And there is great mystery and becoming in that journey.

So there is a relationship between art making and finding your true self?

I think they are inevitably intertwined! There is no way to truly be in the creative process, and not desire to know who you are. And the way to know who you are, is to seek out who God is. You may stop at lower versions of God—Nature, or some philosophy; but you will want some way of interpreting why you create.

Some people go with modern psychology or other philosophical systems as their method of interpreting. I’ve gone with Jesus, and His word. Of course, the Bible itself is more a work of art, than a book of philosophy. So even to encounter God through the book, requires a paradigm shift for most of us.

The Bible as art interest me?

Well, it is—one third is fine art, the rest is mostly stories and great cosmic tales.

The whole book begins by focusing on God’s creative process, of which we were the pentacle or crown of creation, as the book says it. If we are the best art of God (the crown of creation, His poetry -Ephesian 2:10), then we need to consider that we ourselves are also probably creative, and play a collaborative part in creation.

Of course there is the constant interruption of our beings by sin, but we still have this echo of the Voice in us. We still have to create, and can do so as collaboration with God. Art is basically another area to tabernacle with the Living God, and be transformed through, and then refract that transformation and Life Force outwards to the world, or society, if you are given such a grand platform.

For an artist, their spirituality is largely a collaboration with God. It is less about and more from this collaboration. At least, my favorite artists did this: Van Gogh, TS Elliot, George MacDonald etc….people who actually met God through their creative process. You feel that dialogue regardless of how far each artist was along in their spiritual growth. You sense God meeting them as they created. When this happens, you begin to know yourself.

Art and true identity, and even empowerment to live out who you really are, are all intertwined, and spill, or pour forth from our authentic and actual relationship with God!

The church has often just used art as propoganda, the art world as a product to prove success; but there is something much different going on in the Kingdom. Art, and art making is a part of collaborating with God, and getting to be part of stewarding and tending, and even naming and expressing Reality! It’s part of tending the garden!

I think traditionally the post-reformation church sort of contextualize art as evangelistic propaganda-illustrative art meant to convince people the gospel information. Or was just overtly against, any type of creative dialogue with Christ in a living active way. I think what is changing there as a gospel of the Kingdom is preached, is that art ends up being more about our deeper formation and discipleship, firstly of ourselves, then of the nations. The imagination starts to enter into our relationship with God, rather than be decorative. You have to ask, if the poverty of the imagination in much of the 20th C church, has had to do with not understanding creativity as a part of our relationship to and with God.

You can leap ahead to now, where people really need creative spiritual rituals in their lives to offer meaning. People are seeking backwards, but the symbolic dimension of our spirituality and relationship with God has always been available, it didn’t take Azusa and, later the charismatic and prophetic movements to reveal to us, that God was creative and wanted to shine through His people in creative ways.

He is One, His Own creativity is eternal, and includes the new creation He is creating in us, and the new heavens and earth. He doesn’t stop making up new metaphors of Himself! God expresses Himself. That’s there at the beginning of the book. Why would God create. In the beginning, God CREATED!

Now, many are returning to monasticism or earlier, more ritualistic forms of christianity, but this stream of creativity has always been there, because it is in Him. He wants us to be free in this area of the arts, and to meet Him there. Conversely, there are other problems in the art world.

What of the art world? Is it the idolization of the creative talents?

Certainly it is that. But also it is art as entertainment, as opposed to ladder to the stars (ad aspera Dios etc), or artist as teacher of how to see many dimensions and live well in that fuller view. Art is meant to lift us up into His Kingdom, so we can interpret what’s going on down here!

Instead, artist are pulled towards just mere representation of ideas of projects, usually, in the West, to sell products–so Mammon pulls and kills many artist. Still, most artist want to be what Francis Shaeffer would call, “valid”–ie to be true to their process and create a body of work which makes a whole statement. But the temptation to value ourselves based on our talents is immense. And worse, to give them to causes which are not His. We have to often return to our first Love, and be meet God in our art making.

If our talents are not really on the altar as they say, we won’t make it. We have to have gotten our validation directly from The Father first, way before the world or the audience. Otherwise, we will need to get the fat lady to clap forever. Funny thing is, the fat Lady is Christ, and she has been applauding all along! We are approved and He is amazed by us, because He made and knows us. As long as we chase after the praise of men, our art will be violated and misled. Our best art is foolishness compared to His. He created the earth, then made us our of Nature, and breathed His breath, and then gave us permission to tend His Own creation. We are collaborators at best.

Art as product–talk about that?

In the art world, art is seen more as product, and part of the artist celebrity complex–where you try to get the biggest and most exposure or gallery shows etc. You basically try to get famous in the world system. This is bankrupt of course, in the end as a true motivation to keep creating.

There are the three monsters against the art world: some form of materialism, some form of witchcraft or false advertising serving fame, and some form of narcissism which looks at the artist as god. In truth artist play a priestly role, but their creative nature is a reflection of who God is, and meant to be a sign of hope joy and inspiration and freedom for others.

In the church, it is more a problem of using artist to promote your own agenda, so it is prostitutional use of the arts. Both need to contextualize themselves in a Kingdom of Jesus setting in order to be able to interpret the true meaning and purpose of the arts.

Seek first His Kingdom and righteousness, and all these things, including a context of arts and culture, will be added unto you….

More soon from this interview.